What's it like working in a prison?

In this episode, we speak to Katie Lawley, national prison drug and alcohol lead, to explore what working in HM Prison and Probation Service is like. After completing the Future Prison Leaders Programme Katie climbed the ranks, discover how as she talks us through her career journey

Participants

• Emily Slade - podcast producer and host, Prospects
• Kate Lawley - national prison drug and alcohol lead, HMPS

Transcript

Emily Slade: Hello and welcome back to Future You, the podcast brought to you by graduate careers experts, Prospects. I'm your host, Emily Slade, and in this episode I speak to Katie about what it's like working in HM Prison and Probation Service

Katie Lawley: So my name is Katie Lawley. I work within HMPS. Which is His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service. My current job title is the National Prison Drug and Alcohol Lead. I work within prison headquarters leading on drug recovery, of course, prisons.

Emily Slade: Amazing. So what does your educational journey look like? And what drew you to this industry in the first place?

Katie Lawley: Yeah, I was thinking about my educational journey earlier and really never really had a clear plan growing up in terms of what I really wanted to do. I think my dad always had this plan I would go to university - my plan was that I wanted to be an actress, that's what I really wanted to pursue. I wanted to be an actor, tbut after some, negotiations shall we say with my dad, the decision was really that actually I should go to university and just see how it goes and if I'm still interested in acting afterwards, then that's something that I could pursue from that point. So I went to college. And I did psychology and law, and while I was there, I really enjoyed those parts of it. And so the degree that I wanted to do was psychology and criminology. That was the bit. That I was excited about, I enjoyed that part of the most. So I went to the University of Suffolk and did psychology, joint psychology and criminology degree, which was really, really interesting. And I think that when we did one of the modules on prisons, I just was really fascinated in it. And it was only such a short module. I think it was just one session and. He'd wrote an essay about prisons, and I really wanted to find out more and and know more. So that was really a bit of my education and why I then sort of thought about prisons. But. I haven't got any family or friends who worked in the prison service, so I wasn't sure how I would get into working in prison, so that was something that I. Was. Working through, I guess when I was at when I was at university and during one of the volunteering events at the university. There was a stool which was Catch 22. And I remember it at the time and they were taking volunteers and Catch 22 is a charity that worked with. Young people and at the time they were working with people who were had maybe just come out of prison. Young people had just come out of prison or trying to prevent people from going into prison. So it was a bit of a mentoring role. So I thought it would be a good opportunity to use that time to try and get some experience so that if I did get a job. For an interview within the prison service or something similar, then I had some experience to talk about I guess, and that was really good. I loved working for Catch 22 and I actually got paid job with them once I finished university only for a short term I used to oversee all of the mentors within within Ipswich. So yeah, that was a bit of my educational journey and I've also been luckily lucky enough to. Have a fund do a funded Masters through the Ministry of Justice as well. So I've got a Masters degree in leadership and I did that at Henley Business School.

Emily Slade: Oh, incredible. That's a fascinating career journey. Just following that, do you find that your foundation within drama and acting has helped you at all?

Katie Lawley: I think that it does quite often help in situations when you know I might be getting up on stage or you know, now I do. I do quite a lot of public speaking. Within my role, and so I do think that I almost kind of psych myself up before I go on and. You know, yeah. Use some of those skills, I guess. But it was more around the confidence I would say is what I've kind of taken from that. You know, when you're having to get up on stage and do acting, you're around people you don't really know. You have to trust people that they're gonna say the right lines and you know, there's lots of learning. You've gotta learn lots of lines. So I guess, yeah. If in hindsight, it probably did support my my prep for this journey, I guess.

Emily Slade: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. So you joined the leadership scheme as a new graduate. Can you tell us a bit about what that was like and what your experience was like?

Katie Lawley: Yeah. So I actually when I finished working with Catch 22, I actually applied for a job within the prison service working as an administration officer within HMP Hollesley Bay. That was my first job that I worked as. So I didn't apply for the graduate scheme at that point to get into the prison service. There wasn't anything like that at the time that I was aware of. Like the Future Prison Leaders programme. Now that's being advertised, there wasn't the opportunity to apply for something like that or it wasn't advertised around my university. So I remember like speaking to lots of people when they would say, you know, what are you gonna do when you finish uni? I think that's one of the biggest questions. People asked you and I was like I I just wanna work in prisons. Like, that's what I wanna do. But I don't know how I'm gonna get there. I remember that last part. Really, really clearly. I used to say that to people at the time. I don't know how I'm gonna get there. And then when this job came out at Hollesley Bay. I thought, well, that's. A that's a foot in the door, isn't it? It's an opportunity to see what the prison service about see if I even if that's something I'm even interested in at this point. I was battling with. Am I even going to be would do I want to go and be a psychologist. And I was thinking about going down the psychology route within prisons because I had that degree. So I wasn't sure what to expect, but I had been working there for two and a bit years and the graduate scheme that I applied for was actually an external graduate scheme. That was open to everybody, a bit similar to the Future Prison Leaders programme and I was one of 12 that was selected to be on that and. Was, yeah, I'll never forget the fact that I was one of 12. And so I've, I still am grateful for that opportunity and even to this day that I, you know, there's so many. I think there was over 2000 applicants and all the different processes you go through and you think ohh you know there might be someone better than me but actually I'll selected to be on there. So my experience joining the leadership scheme, I was still young, so I think must have been 23 at the time because I joined the prison service when I was 21 and. It was. It was really daunting, I guess because I'd worked in an open prison, so HMP Hollesley Bay is an open prison. So although I had prison experience, it wasn't in a closed prison. You know, there are no walls around you and they've got to that the the prisoners have got to that point because they have made, they've progressed through their sentence. And so they're almost at the end of their sentence. So it's very different. And I. Think that lots of people. Were were saying to me before I went on to the scheme or you know. You're going to be going working in in a closed prison and all that kind of stuff. So I was a bit nervous about it, about that transition, but actually. It was. It's an opportunity that I think I'm like I said, I'm really grateful for and it gave me exposure to things that I wouldn't normally be exposed to. It gave me the tools that I needed to kind of continue on in my career and and it was a quick if you're a quick learner, if you pick things up quite quickly. It's definitely something that. You would be able to do.

Emily Slade: Yeah. Brilliant. So you've sort of touched on it there, but are you able to tell us a bit more about how the scheme prepared you for the roles that you've taken on since?

Katie Lawley: Yeah, I think so. When you're on the scheme, you're with a cohort of individuals and you support each other through that journey as well. So I still stay in contact with a lot of the people that I was on the scheme with and, we're all at pretty similar journeys right now actually. So you know the scheme gave us the tools and the, I guess the opportunity to progress through the ranks a bit quicker than what you would normally what you would usually. So when you join as a prison officer, you obviously have a period of time. On your probation. So I was only actually a prison officer for I think it was between nine months and 12 months. And so it was a shorter period compared to people's careers. If they haven't been on a scheme. So. So it gave me the opportunities to move on and progress and try out different roles. And one of the things that I think it really supporting me with is trying different roles. I think when people typically join an organisation, they'll stay within a role for a long time and we'll kind of become. Experts at that role, whereas this gave you an opportunity to try different things. So I feel like now I've had so much experience even in the 11 years I've been in the prison service that. Really, I've just been exposed to so much and been able to do different things that I feel like I'm a bit of a guess, a bit of jack of all trades and get to I've I've experienced different head of function roles. I've overseen, you know, different departments and stuff like that. So it really gave me those opportunities.

Emily Slade: Yeah. Fantastic. That's brilliant. So you now oversee drug and alcohol recovery across the prison estate. So what does that entail?

Katie Lawley: So the work that I oversee now, so I now work in headquarters, this is a non operational. So there's terminology operational which is when you work in directly in prisons. So I've stepped away from that and I'm now overseeing recovery across across the prisons. So my role. Specifically, we I oversee the rollout of incentivized substance free living units and drug recovery rings, which in essence. Are units which are in prisons which support people with addiction or substance dependency and support them in support them in recovery. So I really I I actually started when I was a prison officer on my scheme. I actually worked on a unit quite similar to this and it was my first. Time being around people who struggle with addiction needs, and I think that I learned a lot from that experience and working with people in that environment and understanding and more about. Different types of drugs and you know, things like methadone and things like that. It's there's lots that I learned during that process and then I didn't really do much around drugs for for most of the leadership scheme. But once I had finished my leadership scheme and I was now a substantive head of function. So I was overseeing the whole function. And there was an opportunity for me to oversee drug strategy. Uh, within a prison. So at the time. There hadn't been any drug strategy head of function roles within that prison, so it was very much a new role. So it was mine. It was an opportunity for me to create that role and and allowed me to take it forward. The prison hadn't me used to having someone oversee this, so it was a brilliant opportunity and I really learned at that point how. Or how important a drug strategy is within prisons so you know, if you think about how much it impacts on violence in prisons and and safety and self harm and those kinds of things, it really impacts. So if you can support people in recovery, then actually you support prisons to be a safer. More decent environment, so it's just seeing that bigger picture stuff. So my plan is very much to go back into a prison. So I am going to be taking my deputy governor exam and I guess longer ambitions are for me to be a governor of my own prison. That has always been a bit of an ambition of mine. And yeah, I guess that's that's what I want to do next. And and and see how it is in terms of running, you know, supporting your own prison from a governor perspective. So we get to see in my role now I oversee drug strategy, drug strategy leads across all prisons. So there's although I don't directly. I manage and those people I kind of am a bit responsible for. I say a bit. I am responsible for overseeing. You know, over 120 of these people who are working in these roles and support them to do the very best that they can do within their prisons. So although I'm in headquarters and have stepped away. From working in a prison, I very much me and my team support. The delivery in prisons and everything we do is to support prisons, to be safer, to be, to be more rehabilitative. So yeah, that's what I that is what I do now.

Emily Slade: Yeah. Wonderful. So the role of Governor, what would that then entail?

Katie Lawley: You you basically are in charge of the whole prison. That is, what you do. So you've got governors, deputy governors, and then you've got header functions who sort of oversee all the different functions and that kind of makes up a senior management team within a prison. So you are responsible for day-to-day decision making. Finance escalating concerns to say, for instance, you need to escalate concerns. That's also your role is to to escalate. Up. Support staff set the vision and the. Direction for your prism. And. And really just, yeah, be the strategic direction to drive the prison forward and, you know, support reform.

Emily Slade: Yeah. So there's good career paths and options there. Sounds like there's a variety of different paths that people can take once they're within the system.

Katie Lawley: Yeah, there are so many different options and I think that is the beauty of the prison service is it's a job for life, if that's what you want it to be. And I very much don't see myself ever leaving the prison service. This is what I want to do. And this is where I see my career. And yeah, that's kind of it once you're here there's so many different opportunities available, whether you want to go down the non operational route or you want to continue in the operational capacity and yeah you could, you've governed your own prison, it's really your career is where you want to take it.

Emily Slade: Yeah. Wonderful. And you mentioned the exam that you would need to take to step into the governor role. Is that something that is done internally or again? Is it externally through a university system? How does the different exam processes work?

Katie Lawley: So they do change overtime, so it could, you know, it could change in in future years. It's an internal exam and it's the idea is it's it's testing your behaviours and your your skills to be able to be an effective deputy governor and once you pass that exam then it's up to you to to apply for a role.

Emily Slade: Brilliant. So are there any myths about working in prisons that you would like to debunk?

Katie Lawley: I think it's. I think for me as a as a young woman, young female coming in to work in the prison search, you know, I've worked. I've only worked in male prisons. So I think that I quite often I get people going. Ohh wow. You work in a man's prison, you know. Can you do that? You're a woman. So, like, you know, actually, there are a lot of women working in prisons and you could be a man and work in a women's prison. So your gender doesn't define what, what category of prison you go and work in. Actually, everyone brings something different to the table. I can think of, you know, for me being young and joining the prison so. This I had a really different, you know, life experience to some of the older generation who were in the prison had been working there for a very long time. And I can think of and some specific examples where being young has actually been really beneficial for me, particularly working in one of the prisons that I worked in. Where we had a lot of young, young prisoners between the ages of 18 to 21. And because I was young, I was able to build a different kind of rapport, and I actually set up a youth council within one of the prisons that I worked in, focused on giving young people a voice. And that was giving young prisoners a voice. And that was just really. It was a massive. Like win for me and managed to get real good buy in and they felt like they had really they had a voice and they were able to take, you know, put suggestions forward. And I remember on International Youth Day. We'd given them the the opportunity to create their own the the menu. I guess that everyone was going to be eating that day and it was. It was quite funny because everyone was eating burgers and and that was their choice and that's it was, yeah. It was really nice. And there's some great things like that which you can you can be really innovative, although it's a hierarchical and there's processes in prison. You know, being innovative and coming up with new ideas and that's something that you can do even in the prison service. So and there's also, you know. I think that there's a big perception around prisons, you know, when you watch TV or you watch TV series, you've got, I get lots of questions. Ohh is it like is it or is it like it is on TV and you know to a degree there are some aspects of it which are you know there are similarities actually most of the time the. The the job is just talking to people, building relationships with people that whether that be. Staff or with prisoners. Everyone is a person and everyone's human. At the end of the day. And if you treat people with respect, they will treat you with respect. So I think there's definitely a perception that, you know, you'll walk into a prison. Then there's just going to be violence everywhere where you might get, you know, involved in stuff like that. But actually, although I've, I've been involved in stuff and I've had some tough challenging. Situations whilst working in the prison service, you know, most days are just doing your job and you, you know you're not always exposed to stuff like that. So I think there's definitely a perception from that sense. And also I would like to say as well that. It was working in the prisons. I remember when I sort of work walking onto a wing and how it kind. Of. Sounded the smells what you saw. I think when you look when you see those big walls, you have no idea what that is. What is going to be behind those walls. And I think you'll just be pleasantly surprised at what is actually behind there, because what? Got is a community. You've got your colleagues who become your family. You know you're working with them every day. Some people take you under their wing. And. Yeah, really. It's just it. I love it. I absolutely love this job. And I loved every, every rank that I did. So on the graduate scheme that I was on. I was a prison officer and then I went up to a supervising officer. And a custodial manager. And then I went on to header function and every rank that I did, I remember loving it so much and thinking to myself. Ohh, should I just stay at? This. Shall I just stay at this rank now? Because I love this rank, but actually I thought no. OK, I'm gonna give. I'm gonna keep going with the scheme. I wanna see what next one. What the next. Opportunity brings and actually every time I then moved on, I just thought, no, this is the right path and it just felt completely right, really. I remember. Yeah. Working on the wing when it was, there were people with substance dependency and I was the I was an officer at the time. And there was a man who he, you know, he was in active addiction and didn't feel he didn't look. He looked quite, you know, gaunt and stuff like that. And I saw him probably maybe 10 years later, now in the capacity that I'm working in with in the drug and alcohol group, I saw him in another prison. On a recovery wing and he just looked really. Healthy. He looked really well. And you know when you just think you know you've this is the reason we do what we do is because we get to help people and actually make a difference, but also not just make a difference to prisoners lives, but staff as well. And that's what the. That's what doing a leadership scheme is is like as well you are overseeing staff and you can support and change someone's whole career really just by giving them the right support and mentorship. So there's loads of rewarding things, whether it be with staff or prisoners.

Emily Slade: Fantastic. And finally, what advice would you give to graduates thinking about joining the prison service?

Katie Lawley: I would say if it's something that you've always been interested in, if you've been interested in, you know, think in prisons or thinking about, you know, the police and all those kinds of things, a lot of people don't really know what goes on behind the walls, and I think. It's very easy to look at. You know, TV programmes and things like that, and to get a perception of. What is what goes on in the? Prison. But really, you have to go in and see it and feel it. And and I would, I would say to anybody that that it's a it's a fantastic career. It's just what you want and especially being a graduate. I think that I just think about my time when I was on this scheme, you know, when you come, when you come in on a graduate scheme, there can be kind of stigmas attached to it. I guess because you've had people that have been working there for years and years and worked their way through the ranks and there's a perception of of graduates schemes in general. But I think that once you breakdown those barriers and you start to see that and they start to see you for being you, those kinds of things kind of disappear. I found that when I started, I definitely there was a stigma attached and. It was it had to sort of push through some of that stuff. And now I, you know, no one really even know I was on the scheme. And. And yeah, I think that one of the best pieces of advice I would give as well is if you do something like this like future leaders, prison leaders programme is. I always looked at the person, the role I was going to be doing next, so you have a clear plan within a scheme like this. So I knew I was going to be a supervising officer. I knew I was gonna be a custodial manager, so I would always whatever role I was in, I would look above and see how they were interacting. How would they deal with incidents and I was always learning. From what they were doing, and there's an that then gives you that experience as well. So when whatever role you're in, look at those above you and sort of. Try and pick up some bits from them. There might be things you don't want to take forward. There might be things you think I'd never do that, but that's also learning. It it's going to be tough and there will be challenges, but the rewards far outweigh though, so I would encourage anybody to think about it, to go for a scheme like this, it gives you opportunities that that can excel your career.

Emily Slade: If people wanted to look further into this scheme, where can people go to find more information?

Katie Lawley: So the application windows actually open from today and close is on the 3rd of June. So there's something you're interested in. Then Google Future Prison Leaders programme HMPS or MoJ. And you'll be able to find, the information on there.

Emily Slade: Fantastic will also pop a link in the show notes below, so click otherwise thank you so much for your time today.

Katie Lawley: Thank you.

Emily Slade: Thanks again to Katie for their time, for more information on the scheme check out the show notes below. If you enjoyed the episode feel free to leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. Thank you as always for listening and good luck on your journey to future you.

Notes on transcript

This transcript was produced using a combination of automated software and human transcribers and may contain errors. The audio version is definitive and should be checked before quoting.

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